Graziano Lathe Sag 14 Manual
Hello, My first real machine will be coming home in a week or so, would anyone have a scanned or PDF manual for a 50s ish SAG 14? I very excited about the lathe and have checked out it's history etc on lathes.UK.
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I hope to get a 5c nose or collect adaptor for it. It comes with 3 and 4 jaw chucks, both 10' which need cleaning up, and that's about it. I'd love to get a steady rest for it too, are such things ever on eBay? I see a local 7.5 HP rotary phase converter, which I think so be more than I need, but any advice is welcome. It's going in the garage, I'm an IT guy that likes to play with machines, in my spare time. Update I finally got the lathe home. I have a 10 HP VFD to power it, and I believe I have sorted out the oils I need to keeps it going.
- Dave, I decided on CXA after much agonising. At 14' swing my lathe fits the specs for BXA, CXA and CA. I considered the Dickson style like yours because a lot of these lathes were supplied with those. But I went with the Aloris type mainly for simplicity of making holders.
- MACCHINE UTENSILI s.r.l. – Via Edmondo De Amicis, 146 - 10093 Collegno (TO) - ITALY – IT 3.
I'll get some pictures posted soon. Questions: Do I need a special type of oiler for the little button type oil ports on the lathe, I'm looking at Goldenrod piston pump oil can will that do it?
Are tool posts for 10-18 inch swing the most appropriate? For tooling 1 inch holders? I see an auction coming with a lot of 1' and 1 1/4' tool holders on offer. Anyone have a favorite dial setup for the cross feed?
It came with a DRO for the Z axis so I'm good there. I plan to the have it back up against a wall, but notice the chip pan come off on the back side, I can make a hoe like device for chip removal, will that be sufficient or should I try and spin the lathe around? It's a hobby thing right now, so I don't t anticipate mountains of chips in the near term I have the full set of carriage stops, how often do you guys use them? Are they usable for shoulder stops and threading stops?
They seem incredibly handy. A goldenrod piston pump works well with Vactra #2 on my Sag 12. Don ClementThanks Don, I have one on the way. I now have the lathe powered up, via the VFD. I have a tool post, and a few holders coming, and most importantly a gas line being trenched in, so I'll have heat. I haven't done much cleaning yet, there are some dings on the ways and leading edge of the compound and the chuckling the lathe has been well used, but everything seems solid.
The 3 jaw chuck is a Buck 230mm or 9+ inches and appears to be truable I'm not sure who makes the 4 jaw it is 10' and has plenty of dings but seems to operate just fine. I tried to get picture's of all these things.
Graziano Sag 14 Lathe Manual
I also investigated the front way covers which I think have been gone for quite awhile, the holes were all packed with crap and a few of the bolts are snapped off. I guess I'll get to try out my left hand drill bits. Questions: I plan to the have it back up against a wall, but notice the chip pan come off on the back side, I can make a hoe like device for chip removal, will that be sufficient or should I try and spin the lathe around? It's a hobby thing right now, so I don't t anticipate mountains of chips in the near term I have the full set of carriage stops, how often do you guys use them? Are they usable for shoulder stops and threading stops? They seem incredibly handy. Thanks PetePete, I have my SAG 14 backed up to a wall and I haven't had any issues cleaning out the chip pan from the front.
I have used the carriage stops on occasion but they don't seem to be really precise enough to trust them for consistent machining to a shoulder. I also find them a bit cumbersome to set up. If you plan to use a coolant system, I would highly recommend constructing a back splash shield and install a chuck guard. Otherwise, you will have coolant/cutting oil all over your wall, ceiling, floor and yourself. You asked about buying accessories such as steady and follow rests on eBay. I have been watching eBay for Graziano accessories for several years and have never seen anything for these lathes.
I purchased both a steady and follow rest on eBay that were for different lathes and machined adapters for them to work on mine. If you're interested in seeing what I've done for accessories and a back splash shield, I can post pictures.
Enjoy your new purchase. They're a great machine. Questions: Are tool posts for 10-18 inch swing the most appropriate? For tooling 1 inch holders?
I see an auction coming with a lot of 1' and 1 1/4' tool holders on offer. I plan to the have it back up against a wall, but notice the chip pan come off on the back side, I can make a hoe like device for chip removal, will that be sufficient or should I try and spin the lathe around? It's a hobby thing right now, so I don't t anticipate mountains of chips in the near term I have the full set of carriage stops, how often do you guys use them? Are they usable for shoulder stops and threading stops? They seem incredibly handy.You may have a problem with 1' tools being above the spindle centerline, depending on the toolpost you end up buying. I would go with 3/4'. Placement of the chip pan is dumb if you put the machine up against a wall.
The machine balances perfectly just under the chuck allowing one to move at around using a simple automotive floor jack. But not with the chip pan in place. Using my machine only on occasion, I just left the chip pan off.
If you use coolant you should install it. With carbide tools, you won't really need coolant anyway; mostly for drilling with HSS. The shoulder stops wouldn't work for threading.
One technique that works well with the clutch driven Sag 14 is just to leave the half nut engaged and reverse the spindle after backing the tool out of the cut when threading. I've used the method for several years with great results. A safety chuck cover helps a lot in controlling oil spatter from the chuck.
I'll try to post a picture next time I'm at home.
Archive: lathes.co.uk email: Graziano SAG Lathes - Italy Instruction, Maintenance & Parts Manuals for many SAG lathes Graziano machine tools were made in Tortona, Italy and although a wide range of lathes was manufactured, the company's most popular appears to have been the SAG 180, later to be sold as the improved SAG 14. The later version had a bed some 3/8' wider, much larger micrometer dials, a hand-operated bed and cross slide lubrication pump, top and cross slides in steel instead of cast iron, a micrometer-dial equipped carriage-traverse handwheel and other small modifications. Designed as a high-class, precision machine (at an expensive £1048 in the late 1950s), the lathe was twice as costly as an English lathe of equivalent size yet, even so, found a ready market, especially in America, where several thousand were sold. With a 180 mm (7') centre-height, the lathe's had a bed that was flame-hardened and ground-finished with V-ways and constructed as a 'double-height' type - not unlike the arrangement used on some flat-bed Drummond lathes in the 1920s - with the carriage running on the covered lower ways and the tailstock on the higher (exposed) set.
The arrangement provided a usefully deep 'gap', though without the usual weakening effect of a removable bed piece. Fitted with multiple, longitudinal carriage 'throw-out' stops as standard, the carriage had long and very wide swarf covers that extended right to the tailstock end of the bed - this latter detail, and the raised bedways, can also be clearly seen in the photographs at the bottom of this page.
While the lathe was generally on a par with the contemporary Colchester Triumph, its nine speeds (obtained through gears made from heat-treated and ground nickel-chrome steel forgings) were rather more useful, running from 45 to 1500 rpm or, optionally, 54 to 1800. With a 2-speed motor sixteen speeds from 30 to 1200 rpm could be obtained and the makers offered the facility to vary the top and bottom speeds by fitting different sizes of pulley. The motor was a 5 h.p. Unit (with electrical control by a 'third shaft' operated by a lever pivoting from the right-hand face of the apron) with the spindle arranged for instant reverse through a double friction clutch (though not all models may have been so equipped). Usefully, the spindle start, stop and reverse could be operated from controls on the apron as well as the headstock. Equipped with a D.1-5' nose, the 2-inch bore spindle of the early 180 ran in plain bearings at the front - with bearings at the rear consisting of two axial thrust type and one parallel roller bearing. Any thermal expansion of the spindle went towards the tailstock through a split phosphor bronze bush held in a conical taper housing - by which means it could be drawn in and the clearance adjusted.
Later-model 180s had three English-made 'Gamet' high-precision bearings were and the spindle bore increased in size to 2.25 inches - changes carried over to the next model, the SAG 14. While the bushed spindle had a large notched threaded collar to adjust the bearing clearance, the Gamet-bearing equipped machines can be identified by a bevelled collar held on with socket head-cap screws behind the D1-5 spindle nose. One other change on later models was the deletion of a useful cast iron raiser block that bolted directly to T-slots at the rear of the cross slide - the block accepting custom-tool holders by Rapid of Italy. Screwcutting and feeds was by a dual metric/inch fully-enclosed, all-lever gearbox (there were no openings to admit swarf or dirt) with initially, a 3-range A-B-C selection that was later increased to a 5-range A-B-C-D-E. Type Late-model lathes had a 3/8'-pitch leadscrew, early ones a 1/2'. Generously equipped for a 1960s model, the 180 had, as part of its standard equipment, a 12' independent 4-jaw chuck, fixed and travelling steadies, a Herson quick-change toolpost, coolant and spanners.
As Graziano subjected the machine to continuous improvement, it is difficult to be specific about changes to the design; however, in summary, there were at least two versions of the SAG180: a 2' bore plain-bearing spindle with an 'A-B-C' screwcutting gearbox and a 1/2' pitch leadscrew, then a type with a Gamet bearing, 'A-B-C-D' gearbox with a 3/8' leadscrew. However, there may have been a third, or at least a maker's variation on specification (possibly to use up spare parts) - a 1978 SAG180 being found in the US with the A-B-C-D-E gearbox and a 2.25' spindle bore (thus being, in effect, a SAG14 labelled as a SAG180).
The history of the Graziano concern is rather complicated: a Maho Graziano brochure dated 1989 says that in 1987 Graziano S.p.A was acquired by Maho AG and became Maho Graziano SPA. Although details of when is not known, by 1994 they were bankrupt and taken over by Gildemeister AG. In 1996 DMG sold its majority stake in its Italian lathe manufacturer (though a name was not given, it is believed that they owned more than one) only to reacquire them (Graziano, Gital and Sacoand) in 2000 as 'Gildemeister Italiana'). The Graziano Tortona plant is still mentioned on the DMG website, though it's hard to pin down what the factory makes. In October 2013 the parent company was renamed from Gildemeister AG to DMG Mori Seiki AG. Graziano Model SAG 14 (previously the SAG 180) 7' centre height by 40' or 60' between centres with an unusual 'double-height' bed, not unlike an English from the 1920s.
The 10-inch centre height Graziano Model SAG 508 was also badged as the SAG 20 and, with a reduced centre height, as the 230. It featured a hardened 'double-height' bed, clearly visible in this end-on illustration, fitted with long swarf-guard covers which extended right to the tailstock end. The carriage sliding feed was fitted with multiple, longitudinal carriage 'throw-out' stops as standard and the spindle start, stop and reverse could be operated from controls on the apron. Running on Gamet high-precision bearings and fitted with a D.1-6' Camlock nose the 2.25' bore spindle was provided with twelve speeds from 26 to 1300 rpm - with an optional, slightly slower set available to special order. The headstock gears were made from heat-treated and ground nickel-chrome steel forgings whilst the screwcutting gearbox provided a range of English, Metric and Module pitches - 40 English, 40 metric, 40 diametral and 40 module - without resort to changing or resetting any of the changewheels. A 16' independent 4-jaw chuck, fixed and travelling steadies, Herson quick-change toolpost, coolant and spanners were supplied as standard. A SAG 20 / SAG 508 / SAG 230 with slightly different styling-but of identical mechanical construction to the 508 shown above.
This model was offered with centre distances of 1500 mm (59'), 2000 mm (78.7') and 2500 mm (98.4'). The swing in the gap was 708 mm (27.8').
Clearly seen in this illustration the double-height bed of the Sag 12 (SAG 153) continued the Grazianio tradition on this, the smallest lathe in the series. The Model 12, had a centre height of 153 mm (6') and accepted 800 mm (31.5') between centres. A detachable gap piece was listed as an option and, with this removed, is was possible to turn a piece of material 440 mm (17') in diameter and 200 mm deep. English Gamet high-precision bearings were selected for the headstock - a double row of opposed rollers behind the nose and the end bearing (in a manner employed on many Colchester lathes at the time) having an outer ring preloaded by a set of springs to compensate for the effects of heating. The 1 5/8 ' bore spindle used a D.1-4' Camlock nose, a 4 Morse taper centre and was provided with eight speeds from 80 to 2000 r.p.m. A very useful feature of these machines was the ability to change spindle speeds on the move - a system that involved four gears, in constant mesh in the main gearbox, being free to turn on their shafts but with each connected to a magnetically operated clutch that could lock it to its shaft. As a further refinement a forward/reverse clutch was also fitted that meant changes of both speed and direction could be managed by simply activating the required clutch through a small 'joy-stick' on the carriage - a small 'click' giving an instant change as the gear became locked.
Normally eight speeds were provided but, with the optional 2-speed motor fitted, this became 16. However, although this was a most useful speed range - and very easily controlled - like Italian cars of the period the lathe's electrical reliability did not inspire the greatest of confidence. Able to generate a generous range of 60 rates of sliding and surfacing feeds and 30 English, 30 metric and 30 module threads the screwcutting gearbox was fully sealed against the ingress of dirt and chips, operated by rotary controls and fitted with its own centralised lubrication system. A later model, the Sag 12S, looked rather different to the standard 12 however, it was basically the same lathe, but with 'squared' styling and a more appealing blue paint finish. However, one major change was the replacement of an electric change gearbox by an expanding/contracting 'Reeves' pulley-drive system, although the forward and reverse electric clutch and electric brake were retained and the speed, direction and braking of the spindle still controlled by switches on the carriage. Most of these SAG 12 lathes are found with a 3 HP motor - and weighed approximately 1000 kg. Graziano SAG 180.
This is an early model with the bed ways about 268 mm wide compared with 280 mm on a SAG14 lathe A standard fitting on early models, on late examples the cast iron raiser block at the back of the cross slide was no longer fitted SAG180. Screwcutting and feeds was by a dual metric/inch fully-enclosed, all-lever gearbox (there were no openings to admit swarf or dirt) with initially (as shown), a 3-range A-B-C selection that was later increased to 5-range A-B-C-D-E. Sag 180 spindle bearing email: Graziano SAG Lathes - Italy Instruction, Maintenance & Parts Manuals for many SAG lathes.