Wingeo3 Mitchell Software For Motorsport
OK, I recently did Paul Haney's Tire seminar (and bought the book). Added to that a couple of MoTec courses in the past month, and a couple of years crew chiefing on BMW's (Club Race, NASA, USTCC), and I'm getting tired of 'just trying things'. I want to use software to evaluate or explain suspension setup. What is a good starting point. I've seen SusProg3 and WinGeo3.
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But I'm not ready to pluck down several hundred bucks, and a day or two to measure everything. I want something that has a basic street car setup (so I can modify the model to the E36 chassis), or something that has models for MacPherson struts and multi-link suspension. A E36 specific model would be better. BTW, I already have all the Carroll Smith books, and the Milliken, Puhn, Haney and Staniford texts.
Wingeo3 Mitchell Software For Motorsport Free
Save up some cash and get the Susprog3 and/or WinGeo3 software. Other free trial software titles include Adams, Lotus, etc.but these are mostly for designing suspension components, not for altering setups.
You say you want to evaluate or explain suspension setups, can you elaborate? A little more detailed description of what you are trying to achieve and more help can be given. If you have read and understood all those books/seminars, you should be able to pretty easily make an excel spread sheet to calculate everything you need, with charts, graphs, and animations even of what you are trying to analyze. Well Wingeo3 is pretty good, the more complex programs will just slow you down with too many variables, and wingeo is pretty packed. I'd suggest saving up and getting the software, its worth it, or any other comparable software you may find.
Either way you cut it, you are going to need to measure the dimensions of the car in question to accurately even get a starting point. Using the books and seminars you mentioned, you should be able to create your own spread sheet very easily, you might want to seriously consider that. This way it can tailor to your specific needs. You said you want to predict changes in spring rate, do you mean what spring rate would 'work on paper' for a specific geometry change, or what would happen with spring rate as a variable?
Do you have shock information, thats probably more important then this stuff. Assuming you have all the Data Acq Data, you can use thier software for suspension analysis as well. You have many options that are most likely easier and cheaper then getting a program used for designing geometry.
Excel is a very powerful tool. Last edited by 95m3racer; at 11:01 PM. Do you want to go through the process to experience the process, or do you want to just find good results?Firstly, I want good results. But I am interested in the process, so I am willing to do the work.
I want to be able to model the best spring rates, ARB, ride heights, shock setting would be nice too. I want a good starting point for my e46 M3 for autocross.
I have tried the various 'recommendations' on-line, but the spring rates etc that 'most people' run are way off from what I get through my rough excel milliken type analysis. Yes, the e46 M3 platform is almost 10 years old now, so I would think that someone would have done the measurements by now. How would one contact a e46 M3 world challenge team? Unfortunately, I think in your situation the calculations won't mean much, neither would shaker rig, or any other shock/chassis analysis. Test and tuning would be your best bet, most time efficient and cost effective solution. Go rent a skid pad for a day (not that expensive) and do some static tests.
Quick way to find out how spring rates are working. Also, how good of a driver are you? For static tests its obviously not much of a factor (thats why they are good) but for on track or at an autox.the driver is still the biggest variable that can make any setup good/bad. I remember using WinGeo a few years ago for FSAE, and the only thing that has stuck with me about it was how buggy and non-user friendly it was (in whatever version I was using, maybe it is better now?).
Aside from plotting the camber curves and a few other things, I think I would much rather work with a CAD system if I was doing it again. From there I would just input those results into a spreadsheet to determine what I would need to use to get certain ride frequencies, roll stiffnesses etc. From there everything might still turn into a pretty crappy handling car in the real world. I use the bill mitchell suite of software. It's not too intuitive but once you learn to use it, it's a great time saver. Everyone looking for 'optimum spring rates' and such won't have much help from any software because of the lack of tire information (amongst other things).
Getting pajecka data for tires is EXTREMELY hard. If you understand the mechanics of your suspension you can model it mathematically though. Like others have said excel is a powerful tool. I would start there and do a lot of real world testing. I don't think any of this is hard but it is a lot of work and you are unlikely to find anyone who has done it and is willing to give the information out or walk you through it step by step.
I spent 30 mins and did some 2D stuff in CATIA that was pretty good for making some 'maths' and geometry and then used Excel to do further analysis. This is for my rickety S13, but nothing you can't do in a an hour or two of measuring(carefully) and then the 15-20 mins it takes to model it in any CAD software that'll do constrained 2D.
Amazing what you can do with a few constraints really.+1 I've done it this way using Solidworks, and it's free.if you know what I mean. Just have a frontal view of you suspension points, arms, and tire contact patch. From those you can set up your instant centers and roll center. Then, if you constrained your sketch correctly, you can put your body in roll and droop/bump to note camber changes and lateral roll center migration.
Also, how good of a driver are you? For static tests its obviously not much of a factor (thats why they are good) but for on track or at an autox.the driver is still the biggest variable that can make any setup good/bad.I'm a decent driver, but inconsistant, I have almost 10 years of autocross experience. I autocross with 6 different local clubs. Everyone but SCCA. I have had a podium finish in my class in my local BMW CCA in each of the last 5 years. If you had not noticed, I drive an e46 M3 Convertible, which SCCA puts in the same class as the e46 M3 Coupe. The e46 M3 coupe has not had much SCCA success in it's class and my 3800lb beast would have no chance in the SCCA.
My problem has been that as I have modified my car, slowly over the years, I do not feel that I am getting the benefit that I should be getting. This year I added TCK d/a shocks and 600f/700r springs, this is the equivalent of 500f/600r spring rates on a coupe, which was recommended to me. I have done excel modeling of my suspension.
I get very different results from modeling than were recommended to me. I had my stock springs measured. The car was sitting statically @ 175f/400r, (the rears have a progressive rate) which is about a 1.2Hz front, 1.36Hz rear wheel frequency. From what I have read, I want to go to 2.2Hz front and 2.5Hz rear for optimal autocross. On my spreadsheet calcs, that puts my 'optimal' target around 600f/1400r for spring rates! So, what I do not get, is why 'most people' recommend such soft rear spring rates for the e46 M3. So that is why I want to go through a more rigorous measuring and modeling process.
Is there a Suspension Measuring DIY or book that anyone recommends?
I just purchased a suspension program from Australia. Embarrassed to admit I don't remember the name but it's on my desk at my shop and I'll check it in am and get back for what it's worth. I was impressed that among the usual suspension systems they also included the Mumford Link. I haven't even gotten it out of the box yet though to try it out. My last version of the Mitchell software seemed inconvenient to use and was hoping for something more user friendly.
Chris Chris, 'll bet that it is SUSPRO from Performance Trends. I used it for a bit as the demo (it has C-5 IRS data - nice) - like to hear your comments when you have time - here or PM. Looked at the Dynatune - VERY Interesting, (Nulrich & Dynatune) thanks for that link! That will be my next free demo check out - may need a checkbook on this one, it has a lot of possibilities. Some of the maths are all reminders of WINGEO, but yes, a much easier input it appears, and nice outputs that remind me a bit of some vey high priced programs.
Hope their 'sale' holds out until I get back stateside. Another simpler approach (still in Beta-for a while) is CASIM;. It does a simulation about a set of varied chassis attach points (2 D you input the range. When the sim is finished, you get all the bump,RC movement, etc as outputs. Only one axle however. And the modeling on is nice as it lets you enter inches or metric, as well as 3 input approaches, SAE, ISO, and 'brochure.' Forgot how I got pointed at it - may have been here in the SR section?
Downside - no output pages - just 'live action' is all I've explored so far. Cheers - Jim. I have a legitimate copy of Geometry (ver 5.01) written by the late great William C Mitchell. I am having a very 'senior' moment and need some help. I have a racecar (pushrod front and rear) which I think has a rear suspension geometry problem, hence I bought this. I have read all the help files and I still cannot solve my dilemma. I fire up Geometry and files/open/pushdemometris.gem, this draws a front up on the screen then I go rear/open/pushdemometric.gem, and yes a rear appears below.
Now I want to start to edit the rear suspension to change the X,Y and Z points so I go to files/edit geometry and it does not give me a choice of front or rear and defaults to edit the front. Having experimented and used 'load demo files box' at startup and selected 'Front and rear formula car' now I go to files/edit geometry and hey presto I get a choice of front or rear. Does another (Mitchell)user know what I am doing wrong? Perhaps it's time for a self help group:0).
I have a legitimate copy of Geometry (ver 5.01) written by the late great William C Mitchell. I am having a very 'senior' moment and need some help. I have a racecar (pushrod front and rear) which I think has a rear suspension geometry problem, hence I bought this.
Wingeo3 Mitchell Software For Motorsport Pc
I have read all the help files and I still cannot solve my dilemma. I fire up Geometry and files/open/pushdemometris.gem, this draws a front up on the screen then I go rear/open/pushdemometric.gem, and yes a rear appears below. Now I want to start to edit the rear suspension to change the X,Y and Z points so I go to files/edit geometry and it does not give me a choice of front or rear and defaults to edit the front. Having experimented and used 'load demo files box' at startup and selected 'Front and rear formula car' now I go to files/edit geometry and hey presto I get a choice of front or rear. Does another (Mitchell)user know what I am doing wrong?
Perhaps it's time for a self help group:0) Don't open 2 files at a time unless you want to compare them. Go to the Utilities tab then Geometry Control dialog, SolidModel. You can change the sketch to show what parts you want to see.
To show the half shaft you go to Edit, Halfshaft and check the box for Halfshaft True. The difference between front and rear geometry is just the graphics you show.